Unlocking Entrepreneurial Success: Nobleer Media's Journey & Legal Insights (Part 1) | 115

In this episode of 'Don't Skip the Legal Podcast,' I dive deep into the captivating world of content creation and entrepreneurship with the remarkable Paresa Noble, the creative mind behind Nobleer Media. Together, we'll unravel Paresa's journey from her corporate roots to founding and nurturing Nobleer Media, immersing you in a tale of evolution, resilience, and the power of storytelling.

Paresa's narrative will take us through the genesis of Nobleer Media, a platform designed to empower individuals, amplify their reach, and catalyze positive change. From ghostwriting and book coaching to SEO strategies and podcast production, Nobleer Media's offerings encompass a diverse spectrum of services aimed at empowering you and businesses like yours to share your stories.

We'll pivot to Paresa's personal journey, including her pivotal role in crafting her father's memoir—an experience that not only shapes her business's direction but also instills a profound sense of purpose. Our discussion will unfold to reveal how the agency pivoted during challenging times, adapting to the pandemic by honing in on marketing and content creation—a testament to resilience and adaptability.

You'll gain insights into the agency's transformation into an authority marketing agency, specializing in personal branding and positioning individuals as thought leaders. Paresa's recounting of the journey from her first client, her father, to establishing an impressive portfolio of international bestsellers showcases the agency's growth and impact.

Listen closely as we steer the conversation toward the dynamics of contractor-employer relationships, illuminating the fine line between independent contractors and employees—a crucial topic for businesses navigating the complexities of workforce management.

We'll delve into the strategic considerations and legal nuances surrounding contractor relationships, shedding light on pivotal factors such as maintaining autonomy, delineating responsibilities, and the potential risks of misclassification.

The episode will offer invaluable insights into managing a remote team, overcoming challenges in cultivating a cohesive company culture, and optimizing operational workflows while adhering to legal protocols.

Through real-world experiences and pragmatic advice, the podcast will encapsulate the essence of entrepreneurship, emphasizing the significance of legal safeguards, strategic growth, and the delicate balance between innovation and compliance.

You'll be treated to a rich tapestry of anecdotes, practical tips, and expert guidance in this compelling exploration of entrepreneurship, content creation, and the legal intricacies that underpin a thriving business in the mode

Don't Skip the Legal podcast brings you insightful conversations with successful entrepreneurs, providing real-world lessons on business growth, legal considerations, and much more. Subscribe now for more enriching episodes and practical insights for navigating the complexities of the business world.

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Disclaimer:

Please note that the legal information shared in this podcast is for general informational and entertainment purposes only. It is not a substitute for consulting with a licensed attorney for specific legal matters. Past performance does not indicate future results; every legal case is unique. Consult your own attorney for personalized legal advice.

Transcript

00;00;00;01 - 00;00;30;26
Contiguglia
I am here today with the amazing Paresa Noble. She is the owner and the proprietor of the blurb media. What nobler media does it? That's it. Yes. Hello. No blame media. It's a content creation platform that empowers individuals to surpass the limits, expand their reach, and ignite positive change by curating and disseminating the insights and stories of those poised to impact industries, minds and connections.

00;00;30;26 - 00;00;54;10
Contiguglia
Say that like 12 times in one breath. Right? That's a mouthful. And you're where you're marketing services. You also offer ghostwriting, publishing, podcast production, SEO work, book design, digital marketing and book coaching and editing. Right. So tell us a bit about yourself. Thank you for being here. You and I have known each other for quite some time. Yes.

00;00;54;11 - 00;01;19;08
Noble
And you've seen the whole journey from when I started the agency to where we are now recording this podcast. So I'm excited for this conversation, that's for sure. 
 
 Tell me a little bit about your journey into creating your own company, as you know, and on this podcast, I like to discuss owners journeys into creating amazing businesses, creating and building and growing.

00;01;19;08 - 00;01;45;11
Contiguglia
That's really a place where I love to sort of plant myself in my clients world. But tell us about Nobler media. Tell us about your mission, your services. Tell us your story. How did you get from start to where you are today? Because it has been an absolutely incredible journey. Yes, it has. So it was 2019 that I left corporate America and I was doing a lot of events and marketing there.

00;01;45;14 - 00;02;15;28
Noble
And I left to do freelance event planning for me to be companies. So focusing a lot on working with keynotes, planning, webinars, conferences, things like that. And that was just six months before the lovely pandemic. So that was exciting. That was a big shift. They say character shines through adversity and I think that definitely shaped up nobler media's character in what we do, because it was then that I actually started helping my dad write his memoir.

00;02;15;28 - 00;02;44;22
Noble
He has a crazy story about how they came to America from Iran. So I got to learn about his story and go through that journey. And while I kind of figured out what to do since all events got canceled, right, you legally couldn't host an event and bring people together. When I started leaning into the marketing side of my business, so writing blogs, managing social for a couple clients, and those clients heard about me writing my dad's book and asked if I could write their book.

00;02;44;24 - 00;03;21;05
Noble
And then it was almost as if I turned around and started swimming downstream. And I found the need the entrepreneurs, the people who have a story who they they want to share it with the world and educate people, or even just leave a legacy for their family. That has been where we have really nestled into. So today it's turned into more of an authority marketing agency where we're helping people with personal branding and positioning themselves as an authority figure, giving themselves credibility through the content they make, the books they write, the things that they do to really just share what they know inside their head with the world.

00;03;21;08 - 00;03;47;03
Contiguglia
It's been amazing. How did you get recruited, so to speak, to write your dad's memoirs and tells a little bit about your dad and what I mean that everybody's father is around. They're creating memoirs. But what about your dad? I mean, especially today with all the political stuff going on with Iran and a lot in the world in the Middle East, and it sounds like your dad's story on his own is an incredible one.

00;03;47;03 - 00;04;11;07
Contiguglia
But how do you get recruited to do that? And what was what interested you in that process? That's a great question. I think my dad, he had been writing what had happened because he was in the in the Navy during the revolution in Iran. So this was like during the shire and that kind of stuff. Okay. So he was there during the Shah and then he kind of saw what happened during the revolution and then they got political asylum here in America.

00;04;11;07 - 00;04;34;15
Noble
So it was him documenting that and kind of journaling what happened. And he had been wanting to write this book forever and he had reached out to a few different ghostwriters. Ghostwriters have really steep prices. They can be upwards to 100 grand. So it was how can we help you? I mean, my sister and I know how to we're pretty good at writing.

00;04;34;15 - 00;04;52;01
Noble
We thought at the time and, you know, we're we have the skills to help them. So that was kind of how it started was you have such a crazy storyboard of how can we help you share this because we want it. I mean, we wanted to learn more about him and then we wanted to create that kind of legacy piece for him.

00;04;52;01 - 00;05;13;06
Noble
So then when our kids are older, they can read it. So that was kind of how we got recruited into doing it. And it just turned into honestly such a blessing because it kind of helped me find my footing in what my business is supposed to be doing and how we can most impact people, you know. So you basically your dad became No Blair Media's very first client.

00;05;13;09 - 00;05;34;21
Contiguglia
Yes, he was. He's a great client. Are you still doing work for him? I mean, were you able to tell us how you ended up with the with the book and where that ended up at the end? He had a bestseller, which was amazing. Wow. And he was the first that we have at this point. We're at 12 international bestsellers across different industries.

00;05;34;21 - 00;05;51;28
Noble
And this your company as a whole. As a whole. Yeah. So for me, it's the eight. And then I have an incredible team that has has, you know, brought a lot to the table, too. And I think that's been a big piece of our of our journey as well. So you start off with your dad. He's your first client who became your second client.

00;05;51;29 - 00;06;10;26
Contiguglia
It's the social services. Yeah, the second one and the third one. But here are your 12 bestsellers in and ghostwriting books and helping people write their books isn't the only thing your company does. But how do you get from your dad to your second client? What do you do to help build and grow your business? What did you do?

00;06;10;28 - 00;06;35;22
Noble
The question I think a lot of it is, is building relationships. Because I was helping my clients at the time with their blogs and their social, and it was really just a matter of being open about, here's what else I'm doing. Like it's been in casual conversation as how that came up. I'm helping my dad write his book, and then it was as if I planted a seed and then a couple of months later, he came and asked us to write his book as well.

00;06;35;22 - 00;06;52;28
Noble
So it was that was how number two came along. And then it was the same thing. It was all warm network people who I have either known for a long time or had met through networking groups and other professional opportunities, and it was just being open and talking about what are you working on, what are some fun projects you're doing?

00;06;52;28 - 00;07;23;02
Noble
And it sparks an interest. So that was how I got the first couple. And then from there, honestly, it took getting a business coach, a mentor. So Tony Grubman has been a big piece of going from kind of like really honestly, the employee mentality from when I came from corporate America to entrepreneur mentality. And that big paradigm shift I think is a big reason why I've been able to kind of, you know, really just scale and grow a team, grow the portfolio, things like that.

00;07;23;02 - 00;07;49;09
Contiguglia
So I think this is such a big thing and it's definitely a big part. I know in losing my business coach over the years, she was instrumental in getting me from point A to point B, and even now here I am then 17 years since I started my company back in in 20 and 27. But I'm always looking for opportunities where I can grow and looking for ways that I can build my business, do things better, make things operate more efficiently.

00;07;49;09 - 00;08;11;16
Contiguglia
And I mean, you've been lucky, you've had a number of people stay with you. You haven't really gone through the turnover. I've had to go through a lot of turnover and a lot of personal health issues as well and then get my boat up right after capsizing in some respects. And so it's I think the use of a business coach is definitely something that anybody in business should consider.

00;08;11;18 - 00;08;32;08
Contiguglia
And I know that you and I have built a really good relationship. You've reached out. You've become a really good friend of mine and even written some content for me, which is great. And if people here have looked at any of my YouTube videos or even some of the other podcasts that I've put together, you've done a great job in putting together a good script and a good, good outline of of putting things together for you.

00;08;32;09 - 00;08;53;05
Contiguglia
Are you you've got your first couple of clients, you've written a couple of books and you're thinking, all right, I've got this business coach. She's telling me what I need to do. What goes through your mind when you're like, Now I need to scale. Now I need to grow? Yeah. Was that an easy time for you, or was that a terrifying time for you?

00;08;53;07 - 00;09;12;02
Noble
It's interesting because I'm still in that process. We've come a long way since that time, but I still have a long way to go. So I think from that point to scale, it was a lot of, you know, when you're in a service based business, you can only scale as much as the time that you have to work on the projects.

00;09;12;05 - 00;09;32;23
Noble
So as a11 woman show, it was essentially I can only take on X number of books and X number of social media clients until I bring on someone else. So I can just there's only so many hours in the day that you can actually work. Yeah. So at that point it was okay, I need help. So that was the first step was finding contractors who could help me.

00;09;32;23 - 00;09;59;06
Noble
And I went through a few really talented people and they helped me kind of with the overflow of work that I needed support on. And then it kind of became okay processes. I think that was the key that really turned everything around was when I actually started documenting my processes and how we're doing it differently than other similar agencies and companies and then being able to train that.

00;09;59;06 - 00;10;21;28
Noble
And that was when things shifted because you could bring in a contractor who has experience in social media marketing or who has experience in ghostwriting, but they're not going to do it in the way that no like no Blair Media would do it right, and it would almost be a diluted service because it's from other from other places where you want to create your own brand and you create your own way of doing things.

00;10;22;00 - 00;10;40;27
Contiguglia
And they're like, you could watch a movie and you can go, That's a Spielberg movie. And, you know, because of the way that it is designed in the way that it is operated. And I think in content creation, you can sort of pick and see, who is the mind behind that design or who is the mind behind, you know, that particular brand and way of doing things.

00;10;40;27 - 00;10;57;03
Contiguglia
But in our business and service related industries, I think that process is, is really important. I'm always trying to fine tune my process and make it even better. It sounds like you found a really good niche with yours, but you raised an interesting point. You know, I've had this discussion before and that is the use of contractors in your business.

00;10;57;05 - 00;11;29;09
Contiguglia
And I advise people all the time that it is a fine line between having somebody as an independent contractor in your business and stepping over the line and making them an employee without ever really realizing that happens. Right. So how are you navigating that line between independent contractor and your employee? Yeah, it's a good question. I think that's something that I kind of that was a big tug of war for me because obviously when you bring people on as an employee, it's a little bit more expensive.

00;11;29;12 - 00;11;52;05
Noble
You have a little bit more of a commitment for liability and things go. But at the same time you can pour into them a little bit better and trust that they are going to stay with you if they are a you too, versus a contractor. But also, I think it was you that told me if they're performing one of your core competencies as a business, then that's where the line is.

00;11;52;05 - 00;12;19;02
Noble
Really. It's not fine anymore. It's like they are your employee. Yeah. So there are a number of factors and there's like 16 factors that the IRS, the Department of Labor and your local department of revenue here in Colorado, the Colorado Department of Revenue, in terms of classifying the people who work for you as independent contractors or employees. And it doesn't matter what you think they are, it doesn't matter what I think they are, matters what they think they are.

00;12;19;04 - 00;12;55;03
Contiguglia
And based on those 11 factors, not one single factor alone is dispositive of whether somebody is or isn't an independent contractor or an employee. But one of the key factors is are you controlling? What they do is the work that these people are performing, the work that your company does, or is the work that they're performing something completely separate from that, like, you know, the true independent contract there is, you know, you log into five or you you log into Upwork and you hire somebody who is running their own little company and you ask them to provide X for you.

00;12;55;05 - 00;13;20;15
Contiguglia
And they do it and they deliver it to you. They charge you for the service and you pay them and you get the product that is the true independent contractor. Your business is a little bit different because you are putting them into this process. You're putting them into this area of we are a content creation company. I want you to come on board and create content for me, for my clients, and I'm going to tell you how I want it done.

00;13;20;18 - 00;13;50;00
Noble
So now you're sort of really tiptoeing along that. How are you dealing with that? You mean like when people come in to hire our team or specifically? Yeah, exactly. Like how are you managing keeping people in the right lane? I think it's important for you. And as we've talked, you're still using a number of contractors. How are you making sure they stay contractors and not bleeding into the space of being an employee for you?

00;13;50;05 - 00;14;10;09
Noble
Good question. So I think the biggest thing is there is full flexibility and freedom and it's very project based for all of our contractors. So the only work that they have is when we have a client project and we say, okay, here's a book that we need you to add it, get it back to us by accident, and they get it back to us by accident.

00;14;10;11 - 00;14;27;11
Contiguglia
So they're working on their own terms. They have their own processes. We're not telling them to be working from 8 to 5 and get this. So we're giving them kind of flexibility to run it how they want to run it. And then for those who are more consistent, we convert them to W-2. And I think that's the safe space to go.

00;14;27;11 - 00;14;55;00
Contiguglia
The more you use these people, the more that you are bringing them in and integrating them into your systems and your processes. I think you really need to pay that little extra just for that security because you're going to have penalties, You're going to have, you know, different, you know, items that could come up. And in another situation, you could end up having some of these employees or contractors decide, hey, I didn't like the way that Parisa treated me.

00;14;55;03 - 00;15;20;02
Contiguglia
And so now I'm going to go after her company. I am going to sue for wrongful termination. I am going to sue for unemployment. I am going to ask for overtime wages and things like that. And then at that point, the moment that the complaint is filed, you now have to defend. It doesn't really matter. And it doesn't matter that you said she'd been a contractor the entire time because the Department of Labor is going to go, yeah, we don't care, prove it to us.

00;15;20;05 - 00;15;47;01
Contiguglia
Because as long as the person makes, you know, the prima facie showing or like an initial showing that they are in fact an employee, it's up to the employer then to flip that around and show that they weren't. I represented a salon few years back who the owner of the salon had people coming in and working their own schedules and doing all this and doing hair, doing nails, doing eyelashes the whole bit.

00;15;47;03 - 00;16;22;20
Contiguglia
And the owner got in a dispute with one of the workers. And when you take that worker did she ran off and she decided that she wanted to file an unemployment claim or file a wrongful termination claim after my client booted her and we found ourselves fighting a claim and in that situation, the hearing officer found against our client because the main factor being my client owned and operated a salon and this person was there doing salon things and all the money coming in through that person went to the business and that kind of stuff.

00;16;22;22 - 00;16;48;02
Contiguglia
That is, I think, something that any employer who has people working as contractors really needs to be cautious about. And I would hope and I think I know I think I know the answer to this, please ensure that we have independent contractor agreements for you here. Every one of your contractors. Right. And another thing that's a huge factor to look at is that they're under contract.

00;16;48;05 - 00;17;12;26
Contiguglia
And as a contractor you've already mentioned, you're not controlling their work, you're not controlling their hours. But are you paying people individually or are you paying companies that are working for doing work for you individual Okay. Or retro? Yeah, it's individual contractors. Okay. So you're paying Jane Doe to do the work for you. All right. Little things are sort of fine to that.

00;17;12;26 - 00;17;32;25
Contiguglia
You might want to consider having each of these people starting their own little losses and then they bill you for their time, and then you pay that invoice and you pass that cost onto your client. I think that is the best way to manage the contractor component. Think of it, if you were to hire a painter to come over and paint your house, right, All right.

00;17;33;01 - 00;17;50;29
Contiguglia
Or your office, they come in and they paint, They give you an invoice, you pay and they leave. That is the true independent contractor. Yeah. Pick your industry painter, plumber, cleaning crew, whatever it is. So with these people who are doing this work for you, you might want to consider. I need you to go and set up an LLC.

00;17;51;07 - 00;18;09;14
Contiguglia
I may give you tasks. I'm going to give you work to do. They can sign your contract, but then they get it done. They deliver it, and then they invoice you. And then you pay the invoice and then you can pass that cost directly onto your customer. Okay, That might be a good way of keeping yourself protected. And I'm not suggesting anybody here that you've been doing it wrong.

00;18;09;20 - 00;18;30;15
Contiguglia
It's not wrong to do it the way you're doing it. Let me make that clear. What? You have to be a little more careful. Yes, we are. Andy. What you. What I'm trying to do is protect you. I'm trying to make sure that you in your company, you're protected so you don't have somebody later on coming in and going, well, no media, you know, they're crushing it nowadays.

00;18;30;15 - 00;18;50;01
Contiguglia
I think now's a good time for me to, you know, sue them for something and let's figure it out because people do that. Yeah, that's why people live in a litigious society. People want to do those types of things. And it's unfortunate that you have to do everything you can to protect yourself. Now, the independent contractor agreement is going to give you that the first layer of protection.

00;18;50;04 - 00;19;11;13
Contiguglia
But even though if you have one of those if those other things aren't being done, if you're not keeping them separate, it sounds like you are, you're going to be five. That little piece, just a little point of information might be the best thing that you could do to really tilt it in your favor later on. So think of it like if you found these people one on five or on Upwork and you said, Hey, I've got this project I need you to do post writing, here's what it is.

00;19;11;16 - 00;19;27;25
Contiguglia
They would take the project, they would do it. 99 Designs. Another good one, Graphic design. I've used them in the past. You get a bunch of solicitations, you figure out which one you like and you buy it, and then they hand over other rights to you. Yeah. And that sort of brings up another another issue. We'll get to it later.

00;19;27;25 - 00;19;49;09
Noble
But yeah, I don't know what you think about that, that No, I really appreciate that. And I think that's when you're starting a business, especially if you go from from corporate to entrepreneurship. There's so many little nuances that you have to learn them and you have to be cognizant of them in order to protect yourself. So I think that's a huge thing.

00;19;49;09 - 00;20;12;26
Contiguglia
I appreciate that. Do you think that using contractors in your business has helped you scale it in a way that you're happy with, or do you think if you could go back, let's rewind you right before the pandemic as you're building your organization. Besides what I told you how I think you should make changes, what do you think you could you would have done or could do differently to make it even better?

00;20;12;28 - 00;20;36;21
Noble
You know, I don't know that I would change anything. I think a lot of what I started with it was all bootstrapped. So it was kind of a matter of the revenue comes in based on project load. So I would kind of be hesitant to commit to bringing on a W-2 at the early stages when it was so project based and we were, you know, trying to find the next client.

00;20;36;24 - 00;20;57;29
Noble
So I don't know. Ideally in a perfect world, I would probably come out the gate with our own W-2. This is how we do it. This is our processes. But I think all of our contractors have been so wonderful in adapting to that as well. They'd bring their own flair into it, especially in the early stages, but especially now the contractors that we work with are amazing.

00;20;57;29 - 00;21;22;24
Noble
I mean, they're very adaptable and cognitive of our processes and it's a very good team dynamic. What they like working with you? Yeah, and I think that's that's great. That's a great team. And I, you know, I do it, you know, I went on your website, I check things out and I mean, I think the last time that you and I had talked before getting all this, by the way, it's probably been about over a year or so.

00;21;22;25 - 00;21;54;06
Contiguglia
Yeah. And even from a year ago, your team has grown. I think it's great to see everything that you have that you've built. I yeah, I think that you could take it one step further and bring those people on as employees and build and come rent space for me and my office building. We build their builds and build your team, which I think is great because, you know, I represent a number of media companies and marketing companies and they have teams of people and their employees.

00;21;54;06 - 00;22;11;07
Contiguglia
And it's just, you know, everybody knows what's going on and going on and going on. I don't know if you would, the relationship is like between your contractors or if you just happen to be the common denominator between all of them where, you know, you're the pivot point, Everybody comes through you and they know through you. Or if they've built independent relationships with one another outside of no.

00;22;11;07 - 00;22;31;29
Noble
BLAIR The latter, yeah. It's become a very family like family dynamic in a sense. And it's interesting because everybody is spread out like we have maybe two people here in Denver other than myself and the rest of them are all over Puerto Rico. So using you, using people from you, doing virtual working and everything is great. So yeah, everything is virtual.

00;22;31;29 - 00;22;49;21
Noble
So that's pose its own challenges too. I mean, it's nice has its pros and cons because when you are fully remote, you have a bigger hiring pool, you have access to more talent from all over. Whereas if I was just hiring here in the Denver metro area, you're confined to the pool of talent in Denver, right? So that's always a win.

00;22;49;21 - 00;23;07;07
Noble
But then it's also, you know, the challenges of building a culture on Zoom and, you know, how are we going to celebrate the holidays together? So you got to get creative. But, you know, are you the people who are working out of Colorado or not in Colorado, but outside of Colorado? Are you there? I mean, there are contractors.

00;23;07;07 - 00;23;31;14
Contiguglia
I mean, one thing that we've run into with some of my other marketing companies is they are completely virtual and they have employees all over. And if you're paying those people, I mean, these people are employees. And so you're now have to register your business in the location with where you have an employee. You have to pay your income taxes and your unemployment taxes in those states and and things like that.

00;23;31;16 - 00;23;51;02
Contiguglia
Another reason where as you're sending off your 1099 and your paychecks to these people, all the more reason that you want them to be, you know, independent, fully operating what they do outside of the state to help you. Now, let me ask you this question. Are you contractors are not all of them? Do they have other people they are working for besides you?

00;23;51;03 - 00;24;15;12
Contiguglia
Yes. That's also a key factor that so that piece alone helps you maintain that distance between them because you can't serve two masters unless you are your own master and then you become the servant because you're the one who then provides them the work and they become sort of the one who guides you. You become basically their client now, and they're running their own independent thing.

00;24;15;12 - 00;24;43;20
Contiguglia
So that's good. If they are running their own business and they are doing work for other content creators or other companies, that is the true freelance way of doing things. And they're under contract with you. They're under contract with somebody else. And that's great. Funny story real quick. So my associate this was years ago before she came to work for me, she was running her own business and she had a bookkeeper who is doing work for her.

00;24;43;20 - 00;25;09;29
Contiguglia
And this bookkeeper was just a contractor helping her do her books, helping her do taxes and and that kind of thing. After she came to work for me. The Department of Labor, no, I think it was the Colorado Department of Revenue decided they wanted to audit her and so they audited my associate and realized that, you know, they wanted to basically say this woman who's been doing all this bookkeeping work for you is your employee and not a contractor.

00;25;09;29 - 00;25;33;10
Contiguglia
And she's like, What the fuck are you talking about? I'm a lawyer. This person is a bookkeeper. Yeah, but she's doing and doing work for you and she is working for your company. And that is all she's doing is in the send the development in the creation and that in and everything relative to your company. Sorry, but she's an employee and you know, she fought it and she was like, that's not fair.

00;25;33;10 - 00;25;54;26
Contiguglia
That's not right. And eventually the investigator was like, all right. Let me ask you, of course, is she doing work for anybody else? And luckily, the bookkeeper was keeping the books for like one other business, not a lawyer, but another business. Yeah, The investigator was like, all right, that's enough. And so she's like, you know, we got through that way.

00;25;54;29 - 00;26;21;15
Contiguglia
But that's the other thing. That's something I always ask, which is like this contractor who's working for you, doing work for other people, right? And that's important now with contractors. That also brings up another issue, and that is your customer contracts are. Yes. Are you putting your customers on notice about how you are using contractors in the fulfillment of the work you're doing for them?

00;26;21;17 - 00;26;43;06
Noble
We have so we have it in our contract with our clients that the work we do is kind of I don't remember the exact verbiage in there, but it is like our nobler media and it associates or something along those lines. But that's really you don't know what's in your contract. So I give you a high level summary.

00;26;43;11 - 00;27;07;19
Noble
All right, 35,000 feet, you get the flying over some state somewhere. They said, we don't know what to make of this, but now it's light verbiage on it. But we haven't discussed that. Like this person is a contractor and this person has a W2. Is that even appropriate, though? I would think that when your customer hires you and I don't mean you, I mean the proverbial you.

00;27;07;19 - 00;27;31;09
Contiguglia
Yeah. That they might want to know who is working with you. And if you're making a representation that you have a team of people who are working for you, there's an impression that they may have that says, well, I'm thinking that this person is affiliated or associated with you somehow, but in reality you're just you keep going to the same Upwork person in the Philippines to do the content creation rather than disclosing that to your customer.

00;27;31;14 - 00;27;52;05
Contiguglia
Sure. And I just think that it's important. Do I think more information never hurts? Yeah. And I think that you can certainly evaluate that. Like in my contract with with what I do, I do hire contractors. I pitch out work to other attorneys, and I put my contract like, listen, there are going to be times that I'm going to hire people to do this job that are contractors.

00;27;52;05 - 00;28;09;29
Contiguglia
They're not employees of me, and they're going to do this work. I'm going to charge, you know, more for their time than I would for my own time to do this job. And you're agreeing that I'm allowed to do that. And that's in there. And if anybody ever comes back to say, well, you never told me it's right there in the contract.

00;28;10;01 - 00;28;35;17
Contiguglia
So those, you know, a couple of sentences in your contract that say, hey, there are times that no player media uses independent contractors to assist with our work, you are agreeing that we can and that at the end of the day you'll still get final say over the product that that we deliver to you. And I think that can be helpful in managing the expectations of your client because again, what happens when clients aren't happy with something, they have a tendency to reach out, get angry, and, you know, you end up holding the bag at the end of the day.

00;28;35;19 - 00;28;54;21
Noble
Yeah, absolutely. And that makes sense. And I think, you know, we don't everyone that we work with is we don't have any like overseas contractors working on anything. I mean, we'll do our covers, which they know is through 99 designs. I mean, they're part of that whole process. So I guess they do know the parts that are truly like a contracted piece.

00;28;54;21 - 00;29;15;03
Noble
But then we have like our core group of contractors who are who we go to over and over again. So maybe that's a that's where the fine line might be, too. But it's become you know, this is like our team essentially. But how they're classified is more so the the house contract. All right. I'm asking you hard I'm going to ask you a hard question.

00;29;15;06 - 00;29;36;23
Noble
A hard question. Okay. Let's go. What's stopping you for from bringing those people on just as employees? Yeah, I appreciate this question because maybe we can talk through it and make a decision right here. Right. So it's essentially I mentioned it earlier, but it's we're very project based, right? Like we'll have our monthly marketing clients where we're supporting them with, you know, ongoing content creation.

00;29;36;23 - 00;29;58;27
Noble
But then we also have the project base. So a lot of it is like as much as we grow for the projects, at least it's, you know, per project. So I guess the hesitation lies in the last thing I'd want to do is bring on, you know, W-2s and then the project load, you know, I don't know, does it?

00;29;59;00 - 00;30;17;11
Contiguglia
Well, you can think of yourself as a general contractor because, like, you're building a house, you're the house you're building is the creation of a category is memoirs. I don't know who would buy it, but maybe a couple of people might think it's kind of cool. All right. So you need to put your team together, need a ghostwriter, you need somebody to interview me.

00;30;17;11 - 00;30;34;02
Contiguglia
You need somebody to design the cover. You need somebody to do the publishing. You need somebody to do the editing, and then somebody need to get into the sales component of it at the end. So all five or six of those people are could be part of your team internally, or you could contract out each one of those individuals.

00;30;34;02 - 00;30;54;12
Contiguglia
But now the question becomes, how are they integrated into your system? And you're the way that you do things because you can certainly hire each of those people independently. Here I am building my house and I need a framer. I need a roofer, I need somebody who does carpentry and all those people I make subcontractors have those people on site.

00;30;54;12 - 00;31;15;08
Contiguglia
But many times they hire subcontractors to do the work. And those subcontractors, they come in, they lay the masonry or they lay the floors. And what do they do? They give the contractor built and they take in the contractor takes it and says, Here we go. Hey, homeowner, now that we've built this, here's the bills for everybody have had to pay in order to get that done.

00;31;15;08 - 00;31;37;01
Contiguglia
And now it's the homeowner's responsibility to now go ahead and make sure that contractor gets paid to pay the the subs. And I think that is I think that's the best way to manage that system as frustrating and is pain in the ass as it is now. There may be somebody out there who completely disagrees with me, which I would expect, but that's me.

00;31;37;02 - 00;31;57;01
Noble
I'm kind of ultraconservative in that respect because I've seen people get their asses burned. Yeah, I want to see that happen. So would you say that, you know, building the house could be the metaphor for these projects come true? Yeah. How I see it is like when we have a project, that's when there is the need. So then to bring people on because the ones that there is a consistent need, they.

00;31;57;01 - 00;32;18;06
Noble
RW too, right? Absolutely. And then the ones that you know, it's more specifically project based, those are the ones who have stayed contract. And you know, I think as we get to a point where the workload is enough for them to be there consistently without like a month long lull till the next book editing project or something, you know.

00;32;18;08 - 00;32;50;04
Contiguglia
So I think once we get over that hump, then the the it will make more sense. So if you did these project by project hires, why not hire somebody as a W2 for that project and then fire them or for a limited term? I mean, you really you could call them a contractor, but you just need to make sure you're paying them appropriately, because what we're really talking about is a tax consequence and, you know, a liability consequence in terms of the relationship between you and your employees and the people who work for you.

00;32;50;04 - 00;33;17;27
Contiguglia
Because when you're an owner of a company and you have employees, the law has much different nature of the business relationship that you two have versus you as the owner of the company and an independent contractor who comes in. That relationship in the eyes of the law is a much different relationship. If you have these projects, you can bring people on for a certain period of time and you pay them as W-2 employees, but it's for four months rather than forever that have them come on again for the next person.

00;33;17;28 - 00;33;37;11
Contiguglia
The next project you hire again, you bring him in, do something like that. Okay. I know. Make us a little bit more, but you know, a lot of us, you're passing the cost back on to your customer for that. Yeah. You know. Yeah. So I don't even know that was an option here. But I mean, if I had an employee, I have to hire them forever and ever day and something bad have time.

00;33;37;13 - 00;33;55;16
Contiguglia
But I am part time. Hire 20 hours a week or 10 hours a week. Yeah. Okay. Okay. This is great. You only run into problems if you pay them. If they make them work more than 40 hours a week, Anything less than you, you're going to be fine. You set the wage, set it paid withholdings, move it on.

00;33;55;16 - 00;34;10;22
Contiguglia
Now, a lot of people are going to say, well, from the employee standpoint, a lot of people don't want employees are like, I don't want to be your own employees, but independent contractors are like, I don't want to be your employee. I want to do independent. I want to be on my own. I don't want to listen to what you have to say.

00;34;10;22 - 00;34;35;18
Contiguglia
I want to do things my own way, which is fine. And you can do that. But then you need to take that next step and go, Great, give me the name of your company. Here's my contract, and then you're going to do this work. And at the end of it, you invoice me, and when I get your invoice, I'll pay it and I'll pass that cost on to my client that I think really keeps that buffer between you two at the right space that really protects you overall at the end of the day.

00;34;35;20 - 00;34;46;29
Noble
that's cool. So there you go. Yeah, that's amazing. Thank you. Yes. Okay, well, I misread your message. You saw that time? Yeah, I know. That was so good. Thank you.